Facility 3141592 OOC

Plain old discussion of Alicorn stories.

Re: Facility 3141592 OOC

Postby Lambda » Fri Jun 20, 2014 12:47 pm

instead of pausing it says "pause" <3
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Re: Facility 3141592 OOC

Postby Armok » Fri Jun 20, 2014 5:29 pm

Ok I'm putting this here since I'm not sure when or if it'll get mentioned:
Name: Archxenopsychologist Sunshine
Or more formally: Archdoctor of Xenopsychology to the Forth Order of Magnitude, Heiress to the University of The Arm of Three Pulsars, Crisp Rays of Sunshine Filtering Through the Water an Early Spring Morning
(It's a lot less unwieldy in their form of communication)
What? Did you expect some random nobody to be at this level negotiation of something this alien after just a few hours of almost no data?
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Re: Facility 3141592 OOC

Postby Armok » Sun Jun 22, 2014 3:05 pm

now, I've been thinking abaut the wordbulding a bit
and I've got a few ideas
but most I'm not rock solid on, and a few seems contradoctory
or unlikely to have yelded the RP so far
like, the evolutionalry biology, culture, and sociology of these aliens mostly
6:16 PM
Rasmus Eide
Hannah Finley
*nod*
Hannah • 6:17 PM
so, I'm just going to spit out a few random spoiery facts here, and you can ask questions and point out thigns that dont make sense or need an explanation?
6:18 PM
Rasmus Eide
Hannah Finley
Sure.
Hannah • 6:18 PM
ok, so they were originally r strategy, but parenting... and non starvation and a decent chance of all their children surviving is something of an ethical superstimulus, making moral realism and total utilitarianism in practice biologically determined universals.
also, they never formed permenet tribes like primates, but rather their social tendencies come from more temporary and eglitaian grouings like shools of fish or flocks of birds.
6:22 PM
Rasmus Eide
Hannah Finley
*nod*
Hannah • 6:23 PM
and also, as mentioned biologically they are far below human intelligence, and only have civilization due to magic providing far more "user friendly" communication than language, as well as intelligence augmentation.
6:24 PM
Rasmus Eide
Hannah Finley
*nod nod*
Hannah • 6:25 PM
So - much less in the way of complexity of value that matters, no natural instincts for hierarchy or politics, and much of their decisionmaking is in stuff that can be redesigned. In practice, they are a fair bit more rational than humans.
6:27 PM
Rasmus Eide
Anyway, they didn't have tribes, never got an agricultural or industrial revolution. They didn't invent the state, the rule of law, or the corporation. Their societies would be classified as anarchy, for much the same reason chimps or dolphins society would.
the "wars" mentioned - violent conflicts with more than a few families - might be more aruratly clasidied as riots, mostly starvation triggered
6:32 PM
Rasmus Eide
Hannah Finley
*nod*
Hannah • 6:32 PM
althou theyre might be a few flashmob style thigns there
anyway. The closest things they have to law enforcement or military is lynch mobs and celebrity vigilantes. However, these are a fair bit more justified and works a fair bit better than they would for humans
6:35 PM
Rasmus Eide
Hannah Finley
how do they do high tech without an industrial revolution or lots of specialized cooperation?
Hannah • 6:36 PM
this is part because of the shared morality; you dont get groups fighting other groups, just ones hunting down psychopaths or other mentally ill or criminally selfish individuals. Also, because they have Detect Evil type magic. so, while they are universaly consequentialist in ethics, their justic system is entiely viture based not punishment based
6:38 PM
Rasmus Eide
Hannah Finley
what does detect evil type magic say about Cam?
Hannah • 6:39 PM
They DO have lots of specialized cooperation. also, magic makes thigns a lot easier.
the detect evil dosnt work on cam because he's to alien
it says "error, soul not found"
6:39 PM
Rasmus Eide
Hannah Finley
ha
Hannah • 6:40 PM
anyway, one idea I have thats nifty, but migth not fit and also might be to dark; what they do when they encounter persistent disagreement on policy, and magic and public opinion makes neither as obviusly evil
rather than just gathering followers and duking it out in a war, which'd be hugely negative sum and not well corelted with the truth anyway
6:43 PM
Rasmus Eide
Hannah Finley
ooh?
Hannah • 6:43 PM
Some number of people (usually, the two best at it from each side, but maybe more, and there might be more sides) engrage in a ritualized "debate" that's a mix betwen a court, a wizard duel, and mutual enchnced interrugration.
it has some huge number of conventions and rules, most notably clearly defined levels of escalation and means of preventing debates that dont warant those costs from escalting to far
The first level, is just a debate, with a bunch of rules to keep it rational
second level, just talk, but few other rules; effectively two-way verion of the AI box experiment
third level; A list of alowed spells to use (truth proving, self precommitment, thought and intent reading), forcefeeding of harmless nootropics, few other thigns like that
higher than that and you start geting into nasty stuff; crusiatus-type torture spell, loive potions, mind control, rape, force feeding haluciongens, chohercive brain surgery, credible precomitment to torturing theoponents family to death...
6:51 PM
Rasmus Eide
Hannah Finley
how does any of that help
Hannah • 6:51 PM
well, mostly it dosnt. High escalations are VERY rare, and require special licences to participate in, and are forbiden unless a sufcent amount of lives are at stake, and so on
and even when the debate is in them, most of those things only has specialized niche uses, or are things you take on *yourself* to prove your commitment
6:53 PM
Rasmus Eide
Hannah Finley
why is "prove commitment" the object?
Hannah • 6:53 PM
because the previus levels of escalation, more rational and moderate debate, have failed
large part of the higher escalation levels only exist for game theoretical reasons, precicaly so that they are not actualy reached
6:55 PM
Rasmus Eide
Hannah Finley
mm.
Hannah • 6:55 PM
anywya, I think it's a neat idea
6:56 PM
Rasmus Eide
Hannah Finley
*nod*
Hannah • 6:57 PM
and it's noit a policy sugestion, it's a weirdtopia provocation
"this is really alien and seems monstrous to us, but if you do the math might still work better than what we do" It's not optimal, but it's better than our system of nations and political parties goign to war
if it actualy was posible and did prevent that
6:58 PM
Rasmus Eide
Hannah Finley
*nod*
like, I don't think the weird magic nastiness duel is *worse than war*, but it's still the sort of thing I'd like to optimize away if I were designing this to be nice instead of interesting XD
Hannah • 6:59 PM
agreed
thats rather tha point
same with "lynchmod kills anyone the spell says is evil, even if they have done nothing wrong yet"
7:00 PM
Rasmus Eide
Hannah Finley
*nod*
So, once Cam knows how they work, he will be sort of concerned about the smartish-but-with-worse-prosthetics Other Aliens but he will be okay with teaching them to make stuff so they can have all the eggs they want
Hannah • 7:02 PM
are there any important gaps I've forgoten to tell you?
7:04 PM
Rasmus Eide
Hannah Finley
I don't think so.
Hannah • 7:04 PM
it's anoying I can generate an entire civelization whole but not actly type it out
been thinking aabut this on and off since we last played basicaly
7:05 PM
Rasmus Eide
Hannah Finley
*nod*
Hannah • 7:05 PM
also read a bit on the forums
the daeva spoiler thread most notably
7:05 PM
Rasmus Eide
ugh it FEELS like I've forgeoten to maneion some important part
maybe just ask me questions to keep my brain in the right area and it'll pop up?
7:09 PM
Rasmus Eide
Hannah Finley
I'm finding myself short on questions, sorry :(
Hannah • 7:09 PM
anythign Ihave implied but not elaborated on, in the rp or anywhere?
did I tell you abaut the language?
7:11 PM
Rasmus Eide
Hannah Finley
Bits and pieces
Hannah • 7:11 PM
ugh this is the p0roblem wen I worldbuild, it very rapidly grows to big to transmit or keep in mind all at once
oh right, group sise
7:14 PM
Rasmus Eide
Hannah Finley
I'm going to go hop in the shower
Hannah • 7:16 PM
so basically, agricultural never happened - it's even now not a distinct concept from terraforming - the size and organization of groups have always been limited at what can form naturally with the given tech. So it just slowly grew with the increased dunbars number as intlegence augmentation got better
and didn't realy explode untill the internet equivelent did
the bigest social organizations are essentialy fandoms in structure, or phenomena similr to Anonymus or Occupy
it wouldn't really work withote the *rediculusly* high trust levels that come from everyone knowably having the same ethics, higher sanity waterline, and foolproof lie detection
there's also magic that helps with actually figuring out what vaguely defined memetic groups actually want, wich is largely how compenastion and distribution of titles can work
7:23 PM
Rasmus Eide
when you get back and have co9mented on this I think I should explain the comunication
7:36 PM
Rasmus Eide
Hannah Finley
back
the fandom structure sounds adorable and fascinating
Hannah • 8:26 PM
back
8:49 PM
Rasmus Eide
sorry fell asleep, still not quite woken up
8:59 PM
Rasmus Eide
Hannah Finley
it's all right
I'm going to lunch soon
Hannah • 9:00 PM
anyway, with "fandom" I mean more abaut how they arise and how power is distributed than what they are abaut
9:00 PM
Rasmus Eide
Hannah Finley
I know, but it's cute
Hannah • 9:00 PM
"less wrong" or "anonymous" might be better examples than "bronies"
althou the later group equivelent might be far more powerfull than in our oworld as well
like, Lesswrong is not *abaut* fiction and quite serius abaut their goals, but Eliezers power has quite a bit to do with his ability as an author, as does yours
9:03 PM
Rasmus Eide
Hannah Finley
*nod*
Hannah • 9:04 PM
And yea, you get a few planets with Justin Biber as God Emperror
9:04 PM
Rasmus Eide
Hannah Finley
Groups of people with common interests accreting around folks popular among those groups for reasons/traits/doing.
Hannah • 9:05 PM
exactly
also Any Rand is an excelent example as well
9:06 PM
Rasmus Eide
Hannah Finley
ooh.
sounds sort of archipelago-esque, do you read Slate Star Codex?
Hannah • 9:06 PM
ya
and yea, but I'm explicitly trying to include a downside for every upside. Archepilogo is an utopia, this is weirdtopia
9:08 PM
Rasmus Eide
Hannah Finley
I understand.
Hannah • 9:10 PM
like, most humans would get a bit freaked out by the fact anyone could just stab them to death in the middle of a crowd and it'd just get writen of as a honest mistake unless it clealry wasn't
because of intent-senitive reliable lie detection
and "being a huge asshole" is sufficent crime, no matter your actual actions
9:16 PM
Rasmus Eide
Hannah Finley
*nod*
Hannah • 9:17 PM
and it hapens all the time... but the thing is mistakes are actualy realy rare, and it WORKS
9:18 PM
Rasmus Eide
Hannah Finley
*nod*
Hannah • 9:18 PM
well, except on the jugalo planets at least
don't go there
9:19 PM
Rasmus Eide
Hannah Finley
XD
Hannah • 9:20 PM
you laugh now, but it'd be quite terrifying
it's bascialy a steelman of witch hunts and stoning
9:21 PM
Rasmus Eide
Hannah Finley
*nod*
Hannah • 9:21 PM
anywya this brings us back to the langauge
a quick sumary might it sends "only qualia". Like, the mysterus redness of read is easily and truely comunicated, the FEELING of it, exact shade, but not necessarily the fact it's a colour or anything else about it
9:23 PM
Rasmus Eide
Hannah Finley
Huh.
But then if they see it in person they recognize it?
Hannah • 9:24 PM
ya
9:24 PM
Rasmus Eide
Hannah Finley
Cool.
Hannah • 9:24 PM
informationally, it's something like a piece of instrumental music, a spectrogram of frequencies and emotions and gestalt, but no metadata
9:25 PM
Rasmus Eide
Hannah Finley
Don't understand.
Hannah • 9:26 PM
you know "flight of the bumblebee"?
or the four seasons?
9:26 PM
Rasmus Eide
Hannah Finley
Not particularly.
Hannah • 9:26 PM
Flight of the Bumblebee - PianoFlight of the Bumblebee - Piano
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MK0z3LS45xU
9:27 PM
Rasmus Eide
Hannah Finley
I am not a nudibranch-alien, so listening to them is unlikely to successfully communicate the content you have in mind.
Hannah • 9:28 PM
that, in a singe moment, would be the "word" for bubmlebee
9:28 PM
Rasmus Eide
Hannah Finley
How does this differ from having words without scarequotes?
Hannah • 9:29 PM
because it's not realy a symbol
the song there doesn't MEAN bumbebee, it shares properties with it
anywya what it actualy feals like is *guesses* and atempts at description, my actual defenition is naurological
*neurological
but I'm not sure I actualy got the neuroscience right
9:32 PM
Rasmus Eide
Hannah Finley
their entire language is made of telepathic onomatopoeia?
Hannah • 9:35 PM
basically, it's almost direct stimulation of a point in the brain like an electrode
sort of, for abstract cocepts it is
it's inspired by this one fic I read some while ago
but I cant find it because I forgot the name
it was abaut a comunication impant that could comunicate an entire mindstate as a single word
9:39 PM
Rasmus Eide
Hannah Finley
ooh.
Hannah • 9:39 PM
this is a far more limited version of it
9:39 PM
Rasmus Eide
a word is a single concept, but it realy is only a reference to it, a far less arbitary and abstract one than a symbol, but still not the whole concept itself
oh, but it IS the case that a few of these can be communicated at once, with each combination having a level of association
9:44 PM
Rasmus Eide
Hannah Finley
*nod*
going to lunch now, but I'll read whatever's here when I am back
Hannah • 9:46 PM
anyway, this is way more efficient for simple things, and have no learning curve or minumum intelegence, wich is a huge bonus, but scales much worse to complexity
9:46 PM
Rasmus Eide
shit, it's kinda late
10:35 PM
Rasmus Eide
uuh, did you foget abaut me? or is this that weekends IRL striking you warned me abaut?
40 mins
Rasmus Eide
Hannah Finley
I warned you I was going
Alicorn
*nod*
going to lunch now, but I'll read whatever's here when I am back
now I'm back.
Hannah • 27 mins
yea
so, plan of action?
26 mins
Rasmus Eide
Hannah Finley
I don't have one hiding under my sofa, what do you mean?
Hannah • 24 mins
try to squese in RP today? just give up and see if it goes better tomorow? plan out so that we have a clear plan to start first thign tomorow?
23 mins
Rasmus Eide
Hannah Finley
I think mine is the last comment in the thread, so you can tag me if you have enough of an idea of what's next to be comfortable, or we can keep talking about nuidbranch-aliens.
Hannah • 22 mins
yea, bugt I just have no idea wha to do next
I've hit some complexity barrier
19 mins
Rasmus Eide
Hannah Finley
We could let this one fade out (maybe answering questions about what would have been for curious onlookers in the OOC thread) and plan something else.
Hannah • 19 mins
yea, I've considered it, but it'd be kinda sad
a hiatus, maybe another RP exploing the world in a more structured way from a different angle, thou
or something
16 mins
Rasmus Eide
Hannah Finley
Sure.
Hannah • 16 mins
dunno
16 mins
Rasmus Eide
so. I'm stuck, and I'll probably remain stuck unless you just decide something
prefereably something reversible
11 mins
Rasmus Eide
Hannah Finley
We can always pick up the sandbox again if we decide to, it's not going anywhere.
So leaving it be is very reversible.
Are you quite pleased with the idea of going on playing with this species/setting?
Hannah • 9 mins
unsure
I'd like to do something with all the info I've dumped in this chat today thou
probbaly in the OOC thread, but I'm not sur ehow to format it, nor am I decided enoguh to make it canon
any ideas?
7 mins
Rasmus Eide
Hannah Finley
You could just go ahead and paste the chat directly if you like.
Including the note about dubious canonicity.
Hannah • 7 mins
the way I know how to do that the formating will be atrocius
2 mins
Rasmus Eide
Hannah Finley
Well, you can poke it until it's not, if you like, or don't, I don't think people will complain about a low-effort data dump.
Hannah • 2 mins
Hannah Finley
ok, just past it is
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Re: Facility 3141592 OOC

Postby Alicorn » Sun Jun 22, 2014 3:06 pm

I don't know how the names are supposed to be located relative to the utterances, but hopefully it's possible to tell who said what just from the contents.
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Re: Facility 3141592 OOC

Postby Tamien » Mon Jun 23, 2014 5:16 pm

I was able to parse it well enough, I think, despite the formatting. The nudibranch aliens have an interesting weirdtopia, and I like the way their "language" works. It's too bad that Cam was auto-summoned and has to sit through the process of learning to communicate manually, rather than getting the summoner-assisted language-dump. In other summoning threads, he gave out a circle to summon him in particular - is there a reason he hasn't done that here? Although the communication barrier is a big part of the fun in reading the RP to me, it seems like it would be the cooperative thing to do for both parties, and it seems to me that it would satisfy the "he isn't sure any circles would be safe, with this level of English facility" problem? Is there a reason I'm not thinking of that giving them a circle that could only summon him would be any more unsafe than the current situation?
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Re: Facility 3141592 OOC

Postby Alicorn » Mon Jun 23, 2014 7:36 pm

He would have given a circle to summon him in particular but it doesn't sound to him like the aliens have a kind of language he will be able to use (he's right).
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