Effulgence Classpects

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Effulgence Classpects

Postby Tamien » Sat Mar 22, 2014 4:21 pm

I hear that the Homestuck Classpect system (modulo some weird new classes/aspects Kappa made up) will be imported into Effulgence at some later date! I am full of curiosity! Please, bestow upon me spoilers of how the Kappa Classpect System works and which characters get what classpects!
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Re: Effulgence Classpects

Postby Kappa » Sat Mar 22, 2014 4:55 pm

All right!

So one time I read some interesting meta on Tumblr - I honestly forget at this point how much of it was drawn from canon and how much just made up - that speculated that the canonical classes and aspects were organized into a structure of pairs. I am a huge sucker for conceptual structures, so I ate it right up. According to that idea, classes come in pairs that are each associated with a verb, and in most cases the verb is also paired with another verb; furthermore, within each pair of classes, one is 'active' and one 'passive'. The canonical classes were arranged like so:

    • Embody: Lord (active), Muse (passive)
    • Know: Mage (active), Seer (passive)
    • Change: Witch (active), Heir (passive)
    • Destroy: Prince (active), Bard (passive)
    • Create: Maid (active), Sylph (passive)
    • Exploit: Knight (active), Page (passive)
    • Steal: Thief (active), Rogue (passive)

I took this and ran with it. ...ran with it kind of a lot, actually. To the point where I think I'm going to have to write a program to generate the BBcode to display all the class pairs I and Alicorn came up with, because there's no way in hell I'm doing all that copying and pasting by hand. In canon there are two superclasses (Lord and Muse) and twelve regular classes; in my spreadsheet, with the original canon ones included, I have six superclasses and 64 regular classes.

The same meta also suggested pairings for the aspects, but those were much less formalized; they're not associated with verbs or divided into passive and active columns. The pairings of the canonical aspects went like so:

  • Space and Time
  • Light and Void
  • Life and Doom
  • Breath and Blood
  • Heart and Mind
  • Hope and Rage

That's twelve. I went slightly less overboard with these, probably because they don't come in pairs-of-pairs so I was coming up with them two at a time instead of four. There are only *cough* 46 in total, original canon ones included.

In Homestuck, you get your classpects through playing the game (or, arguably, as a sort of immutable acausal feature of being a game player, because Homestuck causality is weird) and you get your God Tier when you die in an appropriate fashion. In Effulgence we're going somewhere a little different with it; in certain universes which fulfill certain prerequisites, there are certain individuals born with destined classpects. The prerequisite for a universe to have destined classpects is that it must contain an afterlife-like place which is the domain of a personification of Death. Not all universes which could arguably be said to behave that way will have destined classpects, but all universes with destined classpects fulfill those criteria. Characters find out about their destined classpects when they die and enter the realm of the local Death, where they immediately gain the equivalent of God Tier powers, and must cooperate with all the other local destined heroes to overthrow or destroy the local Death.

Now I'm going to come up with a big long list of non-canonical classes and aspects. :)
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Re: Effulgence Classpects

Postby Tamien » Sat Mar 22, 2014 5:12 pm

Sounds like you subscribe to BKEW's interpretation of the canon mythology! I mostly do, except that in my Class system Knight is the passive counterpart to Heir and their verb is Preserve and they go with the Stealing classes, while Page is the passive counterpart to Witch (and the pair's verb is Change and they go with the Knowing classes). The Passive/Active sequence fits much nicer that way, in my opinion, plus the way I think about Passiveness/Activeness Knights are clearly Passive and Heirs are clearly Active. I agree with all the listed Aspect pairings. Do you also subscribe to BKEW's inversion theory? Have you read any of the theorizations made by Lildurandal or kidcrimefighter or vexarian?

I am somewhat bowled over by the concept of that sheer number of new classes and aspects you made. It seems somewhat unnecessary! I'm also really really curious how you managed to come up with so many without them all stepping on each others' metaphorical toes. I can't imagine how you'd create that many actually unique roles with no significant thematic/literary overlaps! I thought the original system was pretty elegant and I am so curious how you made your additions all work.

I like that method for God Tiering a lot. It works pretty well with the general concept, given that it had to be removed from the rest of its Sburby context. ...It sounds like Syntropy might be a Classpecty world? I've been very curious what the deal with Syntropy is; Cam has been moving rather slowly in his Belling.

I eagerly await the big long list of non-canonical classes and aspects! I want to know what the various characters are and what it all means!
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Re: Effulgence Classpects

Postby Kappa » Sat Mar 22, 2014 5:19 pm

All the ordinary classes, arranged into pairpairs:

    • Know: Mage (active), Seer (passive)
    • Change: Witch (active), Heir (passive)
    • Destroy: Prince (active), Bard (passive)
    • Create: Maid (active), Sylph (passive)
    • Exploit: Knight (active), Page (passive)
    • Steal: Thief (active), Rogue (passive)
    • Command: Queen (active), King (passive)
    • Support: Knave (active), Fool (passive)
    • Amplify: Reeve (active), Cup (passive)
    • Give: Fount (active), Well (passive)
    • Protect: Guard (active), Rook (passive)
    • Attack: Foe (active), Beast (passive)
    • Free: Will (active), Key (passive)
    • Bind: Bride (active), Groom (passive)
    • Usurp: Monk (active), Priest (passive)
    • Champion: Sword (active), Saint (passive)
    • Serve: Thane (active), Pawn (passive)
    • Guide: Scout (active), Path (passive)
    • Tend: Nurse (active), Balm (passive)
    • Engineer: Smith (active), Forge (passive)
    • Manipulate: Hand (active), Voice (passive)
    • Enable: Friend (active), Pool (passive)
    • Regulate: Judge (active), Law (passive)
    • Cheat: Card (active), Coin (passive)
    • Ignite: Lens (active), Dawn (passive)
    • Close: Veil (active), End (passive)
    • Hide: Ghost (active), Shade (passive)
    • Reveal: Sprite (active), Wisp (passive)
    • Herald: Bell (active), Spire (passive)
    • Record: Scribe (active), Tome (passive)
    • Germinate: Seed (active), Spore (passive)
    • Shape: Axe (active), Knife (passive)
    • Carry: Bridge (active), Arch (passive)
    • Hold: Throne (active), Seat (passive)

And the superclasses (for which we changed the rules - the special thing about them is now that each combination of a particular superclass and a particular aspect occurs only once across the multiverse, e.g. there is only one Lord of Space and only one Muse of Space, whereas in two separate universes two different people might carry the destined title of Heir of Time)

    • Embody: Lord (active), Muse (passive)
    • Enact: Fiend (active), God (passive)
    • (no verb): Ace (active)
    • (no verb): Jack (passive)

Ace and Jack are the only exception to the "pairs of pairs" pattern. They are each other's polar opposite, across both the boundary of their verbs (which you'll note don't exist) and the passive/active distinction.

Next up, aspects! I expect those to be much simpler. I'll respond to your post in another post afterward, because these lists get long and my poor brain may be overtaxed otherwise :)

*later edit* Also here's a gloss of some of the verbs.
Last edited by Kappa on Tue Jun 10, 2014 10:14 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Effulgence Classpects

Postby jalapeno_dude » Sat Mar 22, 2014 5:20 pm

Ohhhh. This is related to the "shiny" people, I take it?
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Re: Effulgence Classpects

Postby Kappa » Sat Mar 22, 2014 5:31 pm

List of aspects by pair, with rough explanations of their domains as interpreted by me:

    • Space - physics, geometry, outer space, etc
    • Time - as in time dilation, time travel, timing
    • Light - light, clarity of vision, luck/probability/the future, magic
    • Void - cryptic, obscure, invisible, incomprehensible, absence, things hidden, darkness
    • Life - life, healing, health, vitality, longevity, things that grow
    • Doom - death, ill omens, toxic things
    • Breath - breath/voice, wind, inspiration, leadership through virtue
    • Blood - blood, water, community, leadership through persuasion
    • Heart - emotions, the unconscious mind, morale, love
    • Mind - thoughts, the conscious mind, personality
    • Hope - hope, the light at the end of the tunnel, benevolent gods, angels
    • Rage - wrath, the berserker, malevolent gods, demons
    • Spark - lightning, fire, the catalyst, the beginning, speed, motion
    • Ash - stillness, the end, the aftermath, the place from which to rebuild
    • Change - chaos, spontaneity, unexpected things, things changing
    • Fate - destiny, regularity, predictable things, stasis
    • Truth - fact and honesty and knowledge and science
    • Charm - lies and understanding(/communication) and soft squishy interpersonal things and the art of positive interaction
    • Love - connections and positive/attractive forces and bringing things together
    • Spite - hate and negative/repulsive forces and tearing things apart
    • Calm - waiting, growing, slow and steady, unobtrusive, patient
    • Storm - action, chaos, destruction, fast and loose, big and splashy
    • Dust - matter as particles, things that come in amounts, small numerous things, ephemeral things
    • Stone - matter as objects, things that come in discrete quantities, big singular things, things that last
    • Joy - pleasure, happiness, what makes you feel good, things you can't get enough of, enough
    • Pain - suffering, agony or anguish, overwhelming intensity, too much
    • Frost - literal and metaphorical cold, ice and ruthlessness and the clarity of careful consideration, eternal youth/undying immortality
    • Flame - heat and passion and lust and strong feelings and things going up in smoke, phoenixes, regeneration/rebirth
    • Sun - primary source, day, light and heat and life and birth and creation
    • Moon - reflections, night, half-light, change or distortion, magic
    • Sky - wind, weather, flight, air, open spaces, vast but comprehensible/reachable
    • Star - vacuum, secrets, distance, remoteness, prophecy, last resorts
    • Flesh - the physical body; strength, health, the senses, reflex and instinct, hunger/thirst/sex
    • Bone - underlying structure, of living things and non-; death and dead things; bones
    • Tale - narrativium, history, myth/legend, story logic, poetic justice
    • Dream - dreams, dream logic/physics, the unreal, magic, intuition, illusion
    • Earth - earth, fertility, plants, the land, vast slow steady power, land-dwelling creatures
    • Sea - water, tides, vast capricious power, one cause with many effects, sea-dwelling creatures
    • Rust - death and decay of nonliving things; chemistry; noncontagious illness (curing or causing)
    • Rot - death and decay of organic things; alchemy; infectious disease (curing or causing)
    • Mist - insubstantial, formless, uncertain, gentle, air and water
    • Steel - concrete, solid, sharp, hard, dangerous, earth and fire and metal
    • Wood - Big old growing things; single living artifacts
    • Moss - Little numerous growing things; ecosystems
    • Snow - particulate behaving as solid, cold, purity, desolation, timelessness
    • Sand - particulate behaving as liquid, heat, civilization, the flow of time
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Re: Effulgence Classpects

Postby Alicorn » Sat Mar 22, 2014 5:37 pm

Nothing to do with shiny people, nope. Ask about shiny people in a separate Spoilerland topic if you want the details :)
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Re: Effulgence Classpects

Postby Kappa » Sat Mar 22, 2014 5:39 pm

Tamien wrote:Sounds like you subscribe to BKEW's interpretation of the canon mythology! I mostly do, except that in my Class system Knight is the passive counterpart to Heir and their verb is Preserve and they go with the Stealing classes, while Page is the passive counterpart to Witch (and the pair's verb is Change and they go with the Knowing classes). The Passive/Active sequence fits much nicer that way, in my opinion, plus the way I think about Passiveness/Activeness Knights are clearly Passive and Heirs are clearly Active. I agree with all the listed Aspect pairings. Do you also subscribe to BKEW's inversion theory? Have you read any of the theorizations made by Lildurandal or kidcrimefighter or vexarian?

I am somewhat bowled over by the concept of that sheer number of new classes and aspects you made. It seems somewhat unnecessary! I'm also really really curious how you managed to come up with so many without them all stepping on each others' metaphorical toes. I can't imagine how you'd create that many actually unique roles with no significant thematic/literary overlaps! I thought the original system was pretty elegant and I am so curious how you made your additions all work.

I like that method for God Tiering a lot. It works pretty well with the general concept, given that it had to be removed from the rest of its Sburby context. ...It sounds like Syntropy might be a Classpecty world? I've been very curious what the deal with Syntropy is; Cam has been moving rather slowly in his Belling.

I eagerly await the big long list of non-canonical classes and aspects! I want to know what the various characters are and what it all means!

Well, there you have it!

I no longer remember the names/screennames of any of the tumblr people I read when I was first formulating my theory, or what their specific ideas were beyond the things that I adapted into Effulgence's classpect system.

And yeah, I'm definitely going for precision over elegance here - by which I mean, Love and Heart both cover the emotion kown as love but there are salient differences between them; Doom and the Rust/Rot pair all cover the idea of death, but otherwise have separate domains; the Protect/Attack pairpair and the Destroy/Create pairpair each have a destructive verb, but they're not quite the same destructive verb, and the other half of each pair veers in separate directions. We have hundreds of characters to assign potential classpects to, even though very few of them will have destined ones; the old system would have led to a staggering amount of repetition, and I prefer a staggering amount of variety. :)

Syntropy does not have destined classpects! There is technically a personification of Death, and technically an afterlife, but the two aren't connected in the right way.

edit: And I know you asked for particular characters' classpects, but there are 250 characters in the active-worlds section of the Effulgence spreadsheet and I am loath to dump them all out here as a list. If you ask about any specific person from any specific world, I will happily tell you their classpect and (if they're purple) why I picked it; and if you want, I can tell you which worlds are currently slated to have destined classpects, which characters from those worlds are thusly destined, and what their classpects will be.
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Re: Effulgence Classpects

Postby Tamien » Sat Mar 22, 2014 5:48 pm

I like the new classes you made up a lot! Especially the active/passive pairings and names! And you seem to have done a surprisingly good job of coming up with interesting mythological/narrative roles that don't actually have much overlap in their actions/effects, which is neat!

The new aspects I'm a bit more puzzled by; they mostly seem like they fit into the domains of the original aspects and so to me they seem more like... sub-aspects than aspects in their own right? Like, "Spark" fits in as a part of my conception of "Space", while "Ash" fits into my conception of "Void", and a lot of the other pairs seem to fit into the canon aspects that way. I suppose some of them seem like they take bits of more than one aspect, but none of them seem to lack any overlap with canon aspects at all.

Whereas over in the Class section the "Free/Bind" verb pair, or the "Herald/Record" verb pair, are awesome and also I can't even really imagine the canon classes really working in those ways at all. So I guess what I'm curious about now is: what made you make up so many new classes/aspects? Did you feel like the originals were lacking, or did you just think it would be fun to try to make up some more of your own? Did you just need more to account for all the Effulgence characters who will reach God Tier? Did you start out adding in more Classes and then decide to do Aspects too (or vice versa?) What was the process like?

[I see you have responded to my older post since I started writing this; I will now go read that response, but leave this here for you to read in the meantime.]
[Edit the second: it seems like you actually already addressed a good number of my questions! I like staggering variety so I support the creation of new classpects for that reason. I'm having a hard time thinking of particular characters/worlds I want to know the fates of. If you had any characters you could suggest for reasons of them having a particularly notable classpect, or for reasons of you having had an interesting time classpecting them, I would like to hear about them! In the meantime I will ponder.]
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Re: Effulgence Classpects

Postby Kappa » Sat Mar 22, 2014 6:08 pm

I think I might also have interpreted the canon set more narrowly than you. I can't conceive of Spark folding into Space; in fact, Spark/Ash is the very first aspect pair I came up with as seeming distinct from the original set of twelve, back when I was thinking about all this with respect to Long Way Down and hadn't even suggested to Alicorn that we include any part of Homestuck in Effulgence. I'm not sure Effulgence was even a thing at the time. ...which, I suppose, answers the question of why I started doing all this :D There was no way I could figure on an Alternian AU of Nolan's Batman movies with less than fourteen characters in leading roles, so I needed at least two more aspects. I even made sprites for all of them, not just the ones who appear in the intro!

I will think about particularly interesting classpects and let you know if I remember any good ones. It's been a while since most of the ones in the sheet were laid down, so I forget a lot of the details.
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