Elcenia Mafia Post Mortem

Not the kind with cardstock and pawns. Mostly play by post Mafia so far.

Re: Elcenia Mafia Post Mortem

Postby DanielH » Wed May 20, 2015 5:43 pm

Shoal, yes, your future self is better at making decisions. However, they care about stupid things like Town winning instead of useful things like people having fun playing a game. One of the prototypical examples is Kavka’s toxin: if you have perfect knowledge of yourself, you need to actually drink the (mild) poison or be able to set something up without predicting it will occur. You now care about cool things like getting a bunch of money. Your future self has or does not have the money already, and only cares about relatively unimportant things likes being sick for a day or two. If you have a way of enforcing precommitment, you can make your future self drink the mild poison anyway.

Precommitments are not particularly useful when you expect to gain knowledge that will affect your actions. They are useful when you expect that you will later want to choose something, and you now do not want yourself to later choose it. They can be used for coordination, or when you expect to disagree with your future self and think your present self is right.
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Re: Elcenia Mafia Post Mortem

Postby Shoal » Wed May 20, 2015 5:53 pm

i don’t need precommitments to keep me from being a dick to people. I do want other people to have fun. I tried to win without being mean to anyone and if I didn’t succeed at that then I’m sorry and I wish someone had called me on it, but I think I did okay? I think we already have social norms about the level of social pressure we can put on someone, people have been pretty good about not attacking the player behind the screen.

But the game fundamentally falls apart if we don’t each play towards our own win conditions. If we do no lynch on day 1, that screws up day 2 because we don’t have people’s votes to analyse, we don’t have a flip to analyse, we don’t know who jumped on the wagon because lots of other people were voting so might as well (this is scummy) or who actually had a reason and was trying to think for themselves (this is protown). Instead, no lynch just makes day 2 to be another low information day.

I like a metarule like “we shouldn’t lynch someone who was lynched/nightkilled on day/night 1 of the last game, nor someone who is a first time player” because i think that still lets us get information and still lets us play to our win conditions and guarantees that we won’t have a situation where someone is getting removed from the game very early on repeatedly; it just rules out a few different potential targets each game.

but i agree with jalapeno that this should be dealt with on a systemic level instead of an individual player commitment level.

I think I am capable of intending to do things without committing to do them. It happens all of the time.
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Re: Elcenia Mafia Post Mortem

Postby Tulip » Wed May 20, 2015 5:56 pm

I'm sufficiently burned out, even after the recovery time being dead gave me, that I'm probably going to skip the next game. I definitely will if it starts immediately, but even if there are a couple weeks' delay, my model of Future Me is more likely to skip it than not.
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Re: Elcenia Mafia Post Mortem

Postby Tamien » Wed May 20, 2015 5:57 pm

Aw. You and I are, I believe, the only two who won both games. I was hoping to have a FINAL SHOWDOWN in the third round :P
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Re: Elcenia Mafia Post Mortem

Postby modrony » Wed May 20, 2015 5:57 pm

I'll play when you run it thou I prefer couple of weeks off to get my mind free of this one.

On precommits:
I think there must be rules on when they can be made and changing wincon kinda has to invalidate them.
Otherwise I would be obligated to make a precomm on day 1 to always play to town win and be immune to alignment change.
That can't be withing "play to wincon" in any way.

Also the refusal to make a commit can't be definite indication of mafia alignment.
I want to be able to always stick to them regardless of alignment and still be an effective player in all roles.
I mustn’t be able to ever commit to "don't kill at night" for example or people will know my alignment on day 1.

I don't have it all thought up yet.
Probably shouldn't have used one without the safety clause "if I am town" added to it in this game.
I am unlikely to make one in next game unless I get the rules straight before then.
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Re: Elcenia Mafia Post Mortem

Postby DanielH » Wed May 20, 2015 6:03 pm

I agree that it is better to not be a dick and that all of us collective mostly succeed at this. However, we disagree with each other on Day 1 lynching. I have been pro–Day 1 lynch. I have decided it is not worth it fun-wise, and am now anti–Day 1 lynch. If I voted No Lynch on Day 1 next game without saying anything, this would be scumread; if Aestrix or BSS did the same, it would not. A precommitment is perhaps overkill, though.

Honestly, I expect that it will not kick in because there will be some fundamental change to how Day 1 lynching works. I am not the only one who dislikes the current setup.
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Re: Elcenia Mafia Post Mortem

Postby pistachi0n » Wed May 20, 2015 6:05 pm

The problem is that if someone gets lynched on Day 1, at least they got to play a little bit. If the game starts with night, the person who got nightkilled doesn't get to play at all.
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Re: Elcenia Mafia Post Mortem

Postby anthusiasm » Wed May 20, 2015 6:05 pm

I'm all for people doing re-runs of these games (although Kaylo in particular can't be used twice) if they want to.


Also, unless I'm missing something, the mafia wouldn't be able to have a traitor, since the safeclaim is ruined. That's disappointing, I think it would've been cool to see what a traitor would do. (If you wanted to work around that you could try forbidding Mafia members from revealing what their roles are, have them tell the mod their actions, and have the mod relay their actions to the rest of the Mafia. Again, it's very possible that there's some giant flaw in this plan that I'm missing).
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Re: Elcenia Mafia Post Mortem

Postby Shoal » Wed May 20, 2015 6:11 pm

a random other person could be the traitor. it could have been anyone but the leader and it can be so again. just swap cheris with azef or something
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Re: Elcenia Mafia Post Mortem

Postby Kappa » Wed May 20, 2015 6:11 pm

I'm a little burned out right now and would not join a Mafia game that started within the next few weeks. I'm not sure how long after that it will take me to not be burned out anymore. The game was really fun until a combination of things happened: it outpaced my ability to brain to keep up with it, and demon was revealed and my already weak "figure out what the underlying mechanic implied by this canon reference is" circuits flung up their hands and quit on me.
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