Kaylin's Creations

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Re: Kaylin's Creations

Postby Kaylin » Sat Apr 22, 2017 3:27 pm

Speaking of finishing threads, I finally finished one!

what desperate enterprise, with Diaeresis, is complete.

Jeremiah Howard is a devoutly religious Englishman of the 1600s who wants to become immortal so he doesn't have to die and go to Hell. On Walpurgis Night, he attempts to call upon the Fair Folk for aid, but instead summons a very different sort of fairy...
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Re: Kaylin's Creations

Postby Kaylin » Tue Apr 25, 2017 4:05 pm

Time for some rambling about Z, this time on the subject of "Z's Standards for Proper Immortality".

Z's concern, with immortality, is that he does not want to go to Hell. In settings where there is no Hell/dead people don't go to it, and this is known, he will not seek immortality. I don't know what a Z in such a setting would be like, nor do I know what a naturally-immortal one would look like.

Zs differ from Bells in that Zs care not at all about whether anyone else gets immortality. He will make no particular effort to stop it becoming widespread unless it is legitimately a scarce resource for some reason, but the only person he cares about becoming immortal is himself. This can be changed if e.g. he magically falls in love with someone, but it's a fairly sticky default.

One of the major problems for Zs is that they have Standards for their immortality. They don't want it to be the kind where a version of you dies but a version lives on, because that means they still have to die and go to Hell even if there's another version of them walking around. They also want it to be them, not an approximation thereof with their memories. They object to Sunnyvamps and daeva on these grounds. Daevafication especially messes Zs up because they are demons, and ending up in Hell despite his best efforts is not good for Z's sanity.

They get kind of ridiculously paranoid about this, including rejecting anything that even looks like a Ship of Theseus issue. Uploads don't qualify as Proper Immortality either, and neither does cloning unless you get fancy. On a slightly more positive note, forms of immortality that are acceptable include the Philosopher's Stone in Potterverse, any kind of magic that can just "make you immortal", e.g. anti-aging necklaces, and golden apples from Narnia. If you would like to submit a form of immortality from glowfic for Z's consideration, leave a reply below or catch me on Discord/IRC between 11 am and midnight GMT+1.
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Re: Kaylin's Creations

Postby Aestrix » Tue Apr 25, 2017 4:27 pm

I'm curious how he reacts to ending up in Hell as a daeva, especially with how nice it actually is. Does he still hate his life even though the lakes of fire were never intended to contain people?
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Re: Kaylin's Creations

Postby pedromvilar » Tue Apr 25, 2017 4:58 pm

How is Marcella a Z, then? Doesn't sound like Wonderland has a hell.
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Re: Kaylin's Creations

Postby Kaylin » Wed Apr 26, 2017 4:18 am

Once Zs become convinced that there is no amount of saintly they can be that will get them into heaven, they become varying degrees of nihilistic. Z as a demon fully embraces his perceived role as an obligate evil being and loses all remaining restraint. If summoned, he'll make deals either for souls (which he probably believes is a thing, at least at first) or sex/various other indulgences. He is the stereotype of a demon, basically.

I have no idea whether Wonderland has a religion or what it says about the afterlife, since the original canon doesn't specify. Please note that the desire to avoid going to Hell is completely independent of whether such a place actually exists or whether there is really a chance of ending up there; it's dependent on their beliefs. Zs like Marcella who aim for power in general, rather than or as well as immortality in particular, may be motivated by wishing to avoid unpleasant results in this life, although I don't know the specifics. Also, they are now informing me that they have a general aversion to ceasing to exist, in full generality, which suffices to explain cases where there is no known or theorised afterlife.
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Re: Kaylin's Creations

Postby Nemo » Sat Apr 29, 2017 11:56 am

Zs sound like a pretty strong case for fairy, even aside from the fact that most summoners end up that way. If Jeremiah ends up as a non-demon daeva, would he in retrospect consider himself himself, or is it "I was created with my predecessor's memories when he died"?
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Re: Kaylin's Creations

Postby Kaylin » Sat Apr 29, 2017 2:49 pm

He...I don't know. He probably breaks his brain somewhat trying to force it around the Ship of Theseus issues because dammit, he feels like himself. Except for the whole...magic...thing. And the part where he's thirty again. He does, potentially, end up deciding that he is not the same person, and therefore has no obligation to continue being at all moral or sensible or sane.

I'm curious why you think he's a fairy; I don't have a brilliant handle on the daeva types myself, and often peg characters differently to how other people see them. But I do think Zs are demons, and not just because it's fun to torment them by dropping them in Hell.
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Re: Kaylin's Creations

Postby Nemo » Sat Apr 29, 2017 5:48 pm

I'm not the expert either, but what I was thinking is that he's driven by immortality and Hell avoidance. That seems closer to positioning things (himself, in not-Hell) than to changing or creating. Maitimos are fairies because administrating Tirion counts as shuffling people around, so it doesn't have to be literal moving of physical objects.


Of course, my even less well-founded interpretation is that characters overstate the accuracy of the personality test thing. (We're arguing about the best metaphor and there's no guarantee that whoever judges it even thinks like a human! Let alone a human with whatever set of assumptions would decide edge cases certain ways...) So even if I'm 100% right about Z, it's not like tormenting him with a tacky afterlife anyway is unjustifiable.
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Re: Kaylin's Creations

Postby pedromvilar » Sat Apr 29, 2017 6:12 pm

I think the quick-and-dirty categorisation thing is that if a human finds a system they dislike they want to create something better/new (while possibly uprooting what's there) then demon, if they want to change the system into something better they're an angel, if they'd work within the system they're a fairy.
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Re: Kaylin's Creations

Postby Kaylin » Wed May 10, 2017 8:47 am

Updated the original post with new instances, and also actual descriptions (sorta) for Darcy and Spider. Oh, and with my personality quiz results.
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